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Some Potentially Useful Numbers

  • Sep. 15th, 2008 at 12:31 AM
Brad @ Burning Man
I could blame my latest "vacation" from posting journal entries on the cold I've been fighting off, or on the knee that's blown out hard. (I'm beginning to understand why old people talk about their failing body parts so much; I didn't know that any part of my body could hurt this much.) But no, it's more because lately, my thoughts have been so weirdly incoherent and wandering, I've been hesitating to write them down. I've been short on answers lately, and long on questions that I don't have answers to, questions I don't even know if I'm phrasing the right way, questions more philosophical than useful. For example, here's one. We want a mobile work force, one that's ready to relocate if the jobs leave their home town, willing to go wherever the jobs are. But we also want people to buy their own homes, settle down, care about and improve their neighborhoods. If we want people to be able to relocate across the country to follow their best possible job opportunity, why do we write 30 year mortgages? Now, I know that some of you just said, "wow, Brad, that's a good question, tell me your thoughts on it." Sorry. I'm short on thoughts. All I have, lately, is questions. Weird ones, as I say; that may be the least weird of them.

But when I finally got around to reading the New York Times Sunday, later than usual thanks to a hurricane-powered cable-modem outage, I saw that the headlines are entirely dominated by speculation over just how bad today's, Monday's, stock market drop is going to be, on the news that one of Wall Street's oldest and most famously stable investment banks is being bought at pennies on the dollar, and another is going into bankruptcy, a near total wipe-out of both investment banks' stocks. And, just as importantly, the markets are going to be reacting to the fact that the government did nothing to stop it, which tells them that all the other technically insolvent financial services firms are (as some were predicting) on their own, shouldn't be waiting for a bail-out. And this makes a good time for me to offer you some numbers, I've been collecting, that may help you with your own personal financial planning:

12/31/2009: That's the date when you can assume that the economy will stop getting worse. Why? According to an article I saw (and lost, sorry) about a month ago, by the end of 2009, 97% of all of the teaser-rate mortgages will have reset. Only a tiny handful will be remaining to trickle in over the first couple of months of 2010. Among the implications of this, that's the date on which the glut of foreclosed houses being dumped onto the market all at once will peak. It will be months or years before there are enough buyers to work their way through that huge backlog of sales, but at the very least, it will have stopped getting worse.

The other major implication of this is that any financial institution left alive by the end of 2009 will probably survive. If you want to be pessimistic, stretch that date out to March 31st, 2010, to allow for the last of the December '09 loans to be defaulted and foreclosed on, for the institutions stuck holding fragments of those loans to have to give up on them. But for all practical purposes, the melt-down of our financial services sector will stop getting worse by the end of 2009. As with the housing glut, it will take time for the surviving firms (and probably some help from the government) to raise the capital necessary to start making serious numbers of loans again, for anything, but the credit supply should, barring further disaster, stop contracting by the end of 2009. Which means that some time in 2010, regardless of anything else, companies may be able to start hiring again, and consumers may be able to shop again.

One third of the median income on your block: That's the number that everybody forgot to factor in, the number that got us into this problem in the first place. That's the answer to the question, "what is the highest possible loan payment that anybody can really afford to pay for a house on your block." That's not a guarantee that your house is worth that much. Your house might be a wreck. But assuming that it's not, assuming that your house is roughly as good as the median house on your block, that number can tell you what your house is really worth. Go to the US Department of the Census web page. Look up the median income for your census tract. Knock about a third off of that for taxes. Divide the resulting number by 36, to give you 1/3rd of the monthly take-home pay for a median household in your neighborhood. Now plunk that number into any random loan calculator, at whatever interest rate someone living in your neighborhood is likely to qualify for, 30 year loan. Add a couple of grand to at most five grand for down payment. There. No matter how much you paid for your house. No matter how much houses sold for in your neighborhood during the housing bubble. No matter how many improvements you put into your house, even if you made the silly mistake of making your house the nicest house in the neighborhood? No matter what some politician or banker or (gods forbid) realtor tells you about the potential investment value of your house? That's what your house is actually worth.

Hint: You can probably short-cut this calculation, if you go back and look at what a comparable house sold for ten years ago, before the bubble started inflating, before people started buying houses on "the greater fool theory" (the one that says it doesn't matter if you pay a stupid price for something, as long as you can count on an even greater fool to pay you even more for it later). If you want to be insanely optimistic, push that price up by roughly 30%, to allow for inflation, and hope that the glut of foreclosed houses hasn't pushed the value of your house below that.

If you have to sell your house any time soon, whether because you lost your job, or you're going bankrupt because of medical bills, or because your teaser-rate mortgage reset and suddenly you can't get refinanced because your equity in the house went negative? That's what you're probably going to be able to get. At best. And even then, you may not be able to get that much until some time in 2010.

Plan accordingly.

Tags:

Comments

[info]alobar wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 06:27 am (UTC)
rule of thumb
I favor settling in and not moving for any job, unless it will pay at least three times what I am making today.
[info]gardengirltx wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 08:15 pm (UTC)
Re: rule of thumb
"We want a mobile work force, one that's ready to relocate if the jobs leave their home town, willing to go wherever the jobs are. But we also want people to buy their own homes, settle down, care about and improve their neighborhoods."

Buy a manufactured home.
My advice to most everyone.
No, not much resale value, but then look at what's happening to the value of homes in general right now.
What kills people about mortgages is the interest. A house one can pay off in five years, beats a 30 year loan all to hell & back.Once it's paid off, the money you'll save vs. renting or paying off a longer term mortgage is the prize.

Oh & a manufactured home is a home you can move (yes it takes permits & contractors & a big ass flat bed truck, but you *can* take it with you if a job necessitates a move-- try that with a conventional home).
[info]anitra wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 09:02 pm (UTC)
Re: rule of thumb
That doesn't cover the "care about and improve their neighborhoods" part, though - which is the real reason for all the government incentives towards home-ownership.
[info]gardengirltx wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 09:08 pm (UTC)
Re: rule of thumb
Hmmm, I've not found that true in my park-- many people have lived in the same homes here for 10+ years & seem to generally garden & do upkeep on their homes as their incomes allow. They talk with their neighbors & watch out for each other.
I know not all parks are like this, but nice parks with ammenities & community events do exist :)
[info]anitra wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 09:17 pm (UTC)
Re: rule of thumb
I've definitely seen parks like that as well - but my point is that if you're concentrating on the benefits of your house being mobile, you're usually losing out on the benefits of a "traditional" home.

Also, many cities/towns no longer allow manufactured housing except in very limited circumstances. Apparently, they'd rather put more people in Section 8 apartments, instead.
[info]gardengirltx wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 09:19 pm (UTC)
Re: rule of thumb
"Also, many cities/towns no longer allow manufactured housing except in very limited circumstances. Apparently, they'd rather put more people in Section 8 apartments, instead."

This is very true & very sad (I can't imagine giving up my big front & back yard for an apt-- where would I garden?)
[info]interactiveleaf wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 10:58 pm (UTC)
Re: rule of thumb
Also, many cities/towns no longer allow manufactured housing except in very limited circumstances.

This is, in theory, illegal. The problem is that the people who have the time and money to fight it are the very people who *aren't* buying mobile homes in the first place.
[info]alobar wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 09:08 pm (UTC)
Re: rule of thumb
One still loses one's neighborhood roots. I like never needing ID because stores know me. I like knowing which are the worst crooks in city government so I can work to expunge them. I like being connected to others with similar values to mine.
[info]gardengirltx wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 09:09 pm (UTC)
Re: rule of thumb
True-- it's a shame that people are put in a position of "having" to move due to the job market.
[info]alobar wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 09:11 pm (UTC)
Re: rule of thumb
That is why I prefer to be self-employed, even though the money is not as stable or lucrative as working for a corporation.
[info]nancylebov wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 08:11 am (UTC)
Re: rule of thumb
In re your first question: probably because both are cool mental images which weren't grounded in thinking about how people might actually live. Also, one dream is older than the other. Presumably, when a new dream came in, no one (or not enough people) were thinking about whether it made sense to give up the old one.

If you want to post more about questions that haven't gotten answers yet, I'm interested to read it.

Here's one from me: Where does people's sense of self come from? Why do some changes feel like "the real me" and others not?
[info]Nick Novitski [blogspot.com] wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 12:07 pm (UTC)
It's not immediately obvious to me where on the census page the "median income by census block" form is. My family is going to be selling a house "real soon now," and it seems like this would be useful information?

My nerves command me to keep looking.
[info]fuz22 wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 03:50 pm (UTC)
I couldn't fine one either. The closest I came (and I think the closest the Census Bureau actually gives out), is median income by county:
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/saipe/

Not very precise, but better than nothing.
(Anonymous) wrote:
Sep. 26th, 2008 07:30 pm (UTC)
Census data
You can do a little better by typing your address in here:

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/AGSGeoAddressServlet

Select the 2007 American Community Survey (most current data they have) and choose "Public Use Microdata Area" as the geographical subset. Then, under Subject Tables, click on "more tables" and find Median Income in the Past 12 Months. You can check out the map of the area covered, as well. For me, it covers the Madison, WI metro area, which isn't exactly my "neighborhood" but it's probably a better estimate than 2000 data for the entire county.
[info]perich wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 12:52 pm (UTC)
Fascinating stuff. Keep it up!
[info]naath wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 01:03 pm (UTC)
30 year mortgages v. needing/wanting to move - I think a lot of people (most people?) plan to move before paying off their mortgage, mortgage companies certainly make it fairly easy to transfer the mortgage to a new house (provided of course that you are credit worthy and that the new house costs less than your mortgage is going to end up being for... hard in a collapsing market but not too tricky in a nice stable one). Around here people (financial advisor types) recommend that the amount of time you want to be living in a house you own to make it worth buying rather than renting (if you can) is about three years (because of the costs of moving house); dunno how that fits in with a mobile workforce.

I'm still holding out for the housing prices to collapse further... but I don't know anyone who was stupid enough (or conned enough) to take out a mortgage for stupidly much at a stupidly high interest rate.
[info]cuglas wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 02:47 pm (UTC)
You're probably right.

The Economist is forecasting that US housing prices won't recover until 2010.
[info]cuglas wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 06:43 pm (UTC)
And I just saw today that Greenspan said last week that the entire economy won't stabilize until housing prices stabilize.
[info]bradhicks wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 06:58 pm (UTC)
And for once, I agree with Alan Greenspan.
[info]pentane wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 01:07 pm (UTC)
As far as mobile workforce vs. 30 year mortgage goes, it's yet another collision between idealism (sort of) and reality (again sort of).

We'd all like a totally mobile workforce, but the reality is people don't want to upend their lives every 3 years or whatever to move.
[info]scentofkether wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 11:48 pm (UTC)
I don't know ... why exactly is a totally mobile workforce a good thing, especially in an age when relative few white-collar workers need to be in any specific place to do their work?

I honestly don't get that. I agree that it's a question of ideal versus reality, but the ideal is settling down in a single place, putting down roots, and being able to find local work that puts your skills to use. Mobility is the horror that is inflicted upon us by the low supply of jobs and overabundance of qualified workers.
[info]pentane wrote:
Sep. 16th, 2008 02:03 am (UTC)
I'm not sure what the benefit of a mobile workforce is, but I do know that nothing beats face to face for team interaction. Yes, you can do remote, but it's not the same.

Then again, anything a white collar worker produces can be moved anywhere, so it doesn't matter where it's made.

My initial thought was a mobile workforce was to avoid pockets of expertise forming in certain places, but after thinking about what you said, I think I'm out to lunch on the benefits of mobility.
[info]kimchalister wrote:
Sep. 16th, 2008 04:38 am (UTC)
We'd all like a totally mobile workforce,

Speak for yourself. It isn't me who wants a totally mobile workforce, it's the big corporations. One of the reasons big corporations want us to be so mobile is to break up extended families, so that our first loyalties will be to the corporations rather than to family. To make us feel more isolated and desperate, and thus more dependent on them: that is, better slaves to the corporations.
As someone said, the best way to keep a slave is to teach him to love his chains.
(Anonymous) wrote:
Sep. 26th, 2008 11:32 pm (UTC)
There's another way to keep slaves in line.
Crack down on them HARD, and allow them only one outlet: Unrestricted Sexual Behavior. Let them have only one freedom: Total Sexual Freedom (TM).

The animate property will put all the energy they might put into Getting Uppity into Getting Laid. And each baby slave so bred is pure profit to Massa.

It's no coincidence that the pols & intellectuals who adore the idea of the Nanny State also adore the idea of Total Sexual Freedom (TM).
[info]kimchalister wrote:
Sep. 27th, 2008 04:53 am (UTC)
Re: There's another way to keep slaves in line.

It's no coincidence that the pols & intellectuals who adore the idea of the Nanny State also adore the idea of Total Sexual Freedom (TM).


While I would certainly prefer a Nanny state to a Strict Father state, I think you have it wrong. It isn't liberals who advocate Total Sexual Freedom, it's Consumer Hedonists, most of whom are apolitical.
While there was a brief period in the sixties where young people advocated total sexual freedom, each generation of young people really think they invented sex. It was nothing new, and they mostly grew out of it. What you're complaining about is really not from either liberals or conservatives, but is from that third group, Consumer Hedonists, and the culture and creed of Consumer Hedonism is taught largely by movies and television, radio and magazines. Those things are all owned and run by Big Business, which has no conscience and is supremely greedy, and is therefore evil. but, while people complain about materialism and greed, most of them aren't willing to give up either the media or the equipment of materialism themselves -- everyone else should.
[info]sunfell wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 01:40 pm (UTC)
I rent, therefore I am solvent.

I am stunned. How'd that happen?

I am, however, afraid to look at my 457, my IRA and my Putnam account. I lost over $500 on the Fanny-n-Freddie bailout through my Dodge and Cox- how much more am I going to lose? And is it wise to keep putting money into these accounts, or should I just divert the money until they stabilize- if they ever do?

Sigh...
[info]bradhicks wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 04:21 pm (UTC)
I keep telling people, it keeps looking more and more like the 1970s to me every day. You've just rediscovered the joy of what we used to call "stagflation:" Unemployment is up, so you should stop spending money and save up a cushion against disaster. Unfortunately, inflation is high, and there is nowhere to put any money you need to save where it won't lose money.
[info]elizilla wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 06:41 pm (UTC)
And for those who aren't up to their eyeballs in a variety of debt...

Is there anything you would like to own, that you can afford to pay cash for, but have been holding off on buying out of some notion of fiscal discipline? Get it now - it's not gonna get any cheaper and your money won't be worth as much in a couple months.

We're headed for "make it do or do without" time. Might as well start into it already owning the things you can afford right now, instead of with a small pile of cash that has dwindling value.

I think tools of various sorts are an especially good purchase. Whether it's a sewing machine or a socket set that floats your boat, if we're gonna have a rerun of the 30s or the 70s, then owning and knowing how to use tools, is going to more worthwhile than it's been in years.
[info]bradhicks wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 07:00 pm (UTC)
I agree, subject to two caveats. First of all, make sure you have some cushion against disaster, because if disaster strikes, you may not be able to borrow your way out of it. And secondly, this is not a good time to spend money on, as my late father would have put it, "anything that eats," that is to say, anything that incurs recurring expenses just by existing. Subject to those two caveats, late this year and into mid next year are going to be good times to buy durable goods with cash.
[info]captain_swing wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 02:16 pm (UTC)
There will be some upward pressure on prices from speculators and particularly from landlords. Rents typically go up in a failing housing market so if you have the capital and the temperament now is a good time to buy to let.
[info]sethg_prime wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 04:15 pm (UTC)
My own neighborhood is being gobbled up by Harvard on one end and Boston College on the other. I'm hoping that by mid-2010 I can get them in a bidding war.
[info]theprimarydave wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 04:27 pm (UTC)
Questions are good...
Never be afraid of posing questions to which you don't know the answers. I've found that often, asking intelligent questions is far more useful that coming up with stupid answers. (And don't even get me started on answers to the WRONG questions.)
[info]phillipalden wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 05:30 pm (UTC)
We live in the SF Bay Area, so house prices aren't really moved by the same factors that drive the larger market.

But we love our home and aren't planning on moving anytime soon.

We'd still make a good profit even if we sold today.
[info]kimchalister wrote:
Sep. 16th, 2008 04:54 am (UTC)
You've probably had it for a while then. Our places have dropped in price, but are still higher than we bought them for too. I bought one of the condos in 1986 and the other in 1998. the first one is still worth more than 4 times what I paid for it. The second is worth a bit more than twice what we paid for it. But we refinanced a couple of years ago....
If we ever move, we won't ever be able to move back to the SF Bay Area. And I was born and raised here.

Did the Neocons do this on purpose to our economy, or did they really believe in what they say will be good for the economy? Or are they satisfied in draining the rest of us dry and killing the goose that laid the golden egg?
[info]phillipalden wrote:
Sep. 16th, 2008 05:38 pm (UTC)
The Bay Area is a nice place to live, but I miss my friends, most of whom have moved away.

But I don't think the neocons think about us or the effects of their decisions on the country. They have a twisted "vision" and are blind even to their own failures. Only by voting out those who support them can we defeat them
(Anonymous) wrote:
Sep. 26th, 2008 11:28 pm (UTC)
Don't you know that "neocon" is the latest code word for TEH JOOOOOS?
[info]anitra wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 09:13 pm (UTC)
The mobile work force idea is for single folks with weak family ties - unless you extend it to the idea of the REMOTE work force (AKA outsourcing or telecommuting).

I can't imagine anyone in their right minds would recommend that the modern family (1.5 children, both parents work, etc.) should be ready to uproot themselves every time one person's job changed.

I happen to live in an area where housing demand (and therefore price) is likely to remain high; hopefully, that won't matter, since we bought our house with the intent of it being the only house we'll ever own.
[info]rowyn wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 10:10 pm (UTC)
Freakishly, that figure is within $400 of what I paid for my house 5 years ago. Using the 2000 census, though, so probably the median income has changed in the intervening years. One way or another.

That's okay, I don't want to move anyway.
[info]tenderberry wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 10:32 pm (UTC)
trying to catch up at lj here -
have you seen this movie(can be watched at this link)?
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/main.htm
having seen this recently puts a whole lot more questions in my mind re this domino effect going on with Lehman etc
[info]scentofkether wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 11:42 pm (UTC)
Re: rule of thumb
"We want a mobile work force, one that's ready to relocate if the jobs leave their home town, willing to go wherever the jobs are. But we also want people to buy their own homes, settle down, care about and improve their neighborhoods."

Job interviewers also seem, in my experience, to be looking for people who haven't moved more than once since graduating college but will cheerfully accept a transfer anywhere in the world.

They want people who have had a wide variety of different work experiences (if you haven't used a skill as a primary job function you don't have that skill) but held a very small number of different jobs.

They want people with cute photogenic families but who are willing to work eighty-hour weeks without complaint.

They want people who are highly educated, but not beyond a certain point that varies from interviewer to interviewer.

They want people who are continually improving themselves and gaining new skills, but whose schedules are completely flexible.

They want people who have intense company loyalty but whose reason for leaving every previous job was "offered more money by someone else."

They want people whose every job has paid more and been more prestigious than their previous job, but who expect that the job they're currently applying for will be for life.

The entire hiring process in this country is founded on contradictions ... as near as I can figure, there are enough mutually exclusive standards to give them reason to reject any possible applicant for any arbitrary reason.
[info]kimchalister wrote:
Sep. 16th, 2008 04:58 am (UTC)
Re: rule of thumb
That certainly goes along with employers asking for ten years of experience in a computer language that was invented five years ago. No kidding, they ask for stuff like that. I've seen it -- when my spouse was looking for a job in the field.
[info]scentofkether wrote:
Sep. 16th, 2008 05:01 am (UTC)
Re: rule of thumb
Wish I could say I was surprised.

... I don't suppose they were asking for a literally impossible prerequisite as a test? Anyone who claimed to actually have the requested experience obviously didn't know their stuff, so only people who complained were considered, that kind of thing?
[info]kimchalister wrote:
Sep. 16th, 2008 05:44 am (UTC)
Re: rule of thumb
As it was explained to me, they were asking for impossible to fulfill requirements in order to be able to say that there were no Americans who qualified for their job openings and therefore they really need to import more workers from India, who just happened to work for half the salary of Americans..... that's how they get the H1B visas.
Somehow, the impossible requirements seem to disappear when a foreign person applies for the job. As long as they accept the lower salary....
[info]scentofkether wrote:
Sep. 16th, 2008 05:46 am (UTC)
Re: rule of thumb
That strikes me as a really good way to get the INS down on you like a ton of bricks, but I have a funny feeling that filing a complaint wouldn't do any good -- at least not on any meaningful timescale.
[info]bradhicks wrote:
Sep. 16th, 2008 08:27 pm (UTC)
Re: rule of thumb
Extraordinarily well said. I wish I'd written that.
(Anonymous) wrote:
Sep. 16th, 2008 06:16 am (UTC)
If it's the 70s, should I buy gold?
In staqflation, with high inflation eating my dollars and nothing worthile to invest in, should I buy gold?

Because I think the gold market is run by persons of regrettable characgter.