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David Adkisson Was "Only" Following Orders

  • Jul. 29th, 2008 at 2:39 AM
Brad @ Burning Man
During and immediately after the 1988 Presidential election between Republican George H.W. Bush ("Bush the Elder") and Democrat Michael Dukakis, much of Bush's sweeping victory was attributed, at the time, to the rise of a "new" voting bloc: The Angry White Male Vote. Campaign pollsters and campaign strategists running focus groups had determined that there was one political issue on the minds of an awful lot of independent, or swing voters, nearly half of them, that was a "hidden" issue in the sense that neither campaign was actually campaigning on it, although it did come up on talk radio intermittently. Democrats were identified as the pro-feminism party, and there was this sudden and detectable surge in the number of men who were, at the time, blaming feminism for all of their problems. And so Susan Faludi, one of the best feminist writers alive, was tasked by her equally feminist editor, to go out and write the definitive book on The Angry White Male voting bloc.

She and her editor began in total agreement as to what the book would be like. Since every good feminist knows that men, and especially white men, control everything, own everything, and get their way on every political issue, white men have no legitimate reasons for anger. It was obvious to both of them that what was going on was that Angry White Men were reacting violently to the mere request that they share wealth, authority, and power more evenly with women and minorities. So to research the book, Faludi simply went to where her feminist friends were telling her were the most toxic cesspools of White Male Rage to interview the guys, intending to record their complaints about the non-existent ways in which feminism had hurt them, and compile them into yet another dismissive and insulting feminist book about what's wrong with men. But as she began to spend time with the men, she started to get a sense that no, wait, maybe white men do have a problem, whether they're lashing out at the right people or not, with the way the world has turned out. But then something happened that shocked her into unexpected empathy, and that's why her 2000 book Stiffed: The Betrayal of the American Man, went in directions even she couldn't begin to have anticipated when she first set out to research it, why I recommend it to everybody.

What was that first accidental discovery that so shocked her conscience that she had to re-think all of her preconceptions? The first actual complaint she bumped into where men could show that they had actually been hurt, and hurt badly, by something that even she couldn't deny had been a feminist cause in the 1960s and 1970s: no-fault divorce laws. You see, by the time she was doing her research, mass layoffs were hitting the defense industry, the result of a bipartisan consensus that now that the Cold War was over, we no longer needed to be spending quite so much on deterring Soviet militarism; all that remained to be argued over was whether to cut taxes, or use the savings to pay down some of the national debt. Some of Faludi's friends had told her that she really needed to go talk to the men who were being laid off at the end of the Cold War, because they had a reputation as being the most viciously sexist guys on the planet. And what she found, as she listened to them long enough to get them willing to tell her their own real life stories, is that without exception, every single one of their wives left them with at most three months of being laid off. Because defense industry jobs had paid well, nearly all of them had supported stay-at-home wives for years, most a decade or more. Now there were literally tens of thousands of them unemployed at once in the LA market, far more than there were job openings that were even willing to take an "over-qualified" middle-aged man for even the most menial of jobs. Their wives, having no such resumés to defend, found it much easier to find entry-level work. But all of the examples she could find that didn't, instead did something honestly reprehensible: went out and found some guy who still had a job, cheated on their husbands (in one benchmark example she gives, openly, in front of him) to wheedle that guy for money. Either way, once they had the prospect of any kind of income, they divorced their husbands.

The men were bitterly angry about this. They and their wives had gone to the sacred altar of God and mutually sworn to stick together "for better and for worse, for richer and for poorer, in sickness and in health, so long as you both shall live" -- only for the men to find out that nearly every woman in America was lying through her teeth about the "for richer or for poorer" part. And thanks to no-fault divorce laws and the end of spousal support laws and the return of women to the workforce, all feminist issues, the men who still loved their wives, the men who wanted them to stay together through however many years it was going to take the economy to recover even if it meant they got a lot poorer together for a while, had lost all emotional, and societal, and legal leverage to persuade their wives to honor their sacred promise to God himself and stay. And the ex-wives that Faludi was able to interview were uncomfortable, when asked this, but the truth remains: heterosexual women only marry men, and a "man" without a job "isn't really a man."

The book goes on from there, as Faludi used her new-found empathy to actually listen to men, and ultimately concluded that no, really, men did have it genuinely awful in the 1980s and 1990s, they did have legitimate grounds for anger; that some few of their complaints about feminism have at least a grain of truth in them; but that if men would put that aside and talk with the remaining veterans of the 1950s and 1960s feminist Consciousness Raising Movement they might find an equally large grain of common cause, and more importantly find that those graying veterans of the feminist movement they're so angry at are the ones who could teach them the ways, are the ones uniquely suited to share with them the tools they need, to heal their hurts and to force society to address their problems. It's a great book; read it.

I mention this today for two reasons. For one, it's fresh in my mind; the mini "book and video club" that I have going with [info]phierma and [info]cos_x just went through chapter 2 of Stiffed last Thursday night, so it's fresh in my mind. But wow, did I pick an odd week to have just read that, because by coincidence? The year Faludi's book came out, 2000, also turns out to be the year that Knoxville church shooter David Adkisson's fourth and final ex-wife left him, at the urging of her feminist and generally liberal church, Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church. And since then, Adkisson has constructed a narrative in his mind by which those particular liberals were only the most personal and vivid example of a class of Christian anti-war and pro-civil-rights feminists who had made his life a living hell ever since he returned from service with the 101st Airborne Rangers in Vietnam; everything bad that has happened to him in his life, all the way back to the 1970s but especially since they persuaded his wife to leave him in 2000, was the fault of an organized campaign by liberals to ruin the lives of guys like him for, so far as he could tell, no good reason.

Ever have that conversation that goes, "Suppose you knew you only had a week to live -- who would you kill?" Heinlein made it a major plot point in one of his novels, To Sail Beyond the Sunset. Set in a repressive alternate-history America dominated by the all-controlling Church Of Your Choice, a small conspiracy of people facing the death penalty and/or about to die of some disease have formed the too-cutely-named "Committee for Aesthetic Deletion," to help each other plan their final suicide attacks on whoever it is they blame for America's decline. I've been in or around that conversation not a few times, myself; I'm pretty sure it's a common-enough experience. Nobody I've ever been around has shown any sign of taking it literally. It's an outlet for anger, and even more than that, it's a mechanism for human groups to bond together by expressing shared outrage, to reassure each other that they do consider the same or similar people to be irredeemable sinners. But then, not all of us used to remorsely murder civilians, in the free-fire zone in Vietnam, on the taxpayer dime, on orders that (as the Toledo Blade won the Pulitzer for documenting, not all that long ago) came all the way down from the White House. So when out of work David Adkisson lost his food stamps last week, and faced the realization that a 58 year old really is too old and weak to be living under an overpass like so many American homeless combat veterans have to, when he decided that he had very little time left to live -- I'm sure he felt fewer compunctions about murdering those responsible than the rest of us would.

And, as freelance journalist and author David Neiwert has been warning us for almost two years now, once again his orders came almost all the way down from the top of the Republican Party. Go to his blog post about the TVUUC church shootings, "In Tennessee, eliminationism is no longer 'just a joke'" (dneiwert.blogspot.com, 7/28/08), and read his unpublished book on the subject, Eliminationism in America, via the links in the sidebar. In ten short chapters and an afterword, he has been warning us since December of '06 that the level of rhetoric on the part of right-wing spokespeople like Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, and dozens of their small-time imitators changed, and changed very explicitly, in the last ten years or so. Each and every one of them has started urging their listeners that it is pointless to argue with liberals, and not enough to organize against them politically: liberals must be murdered, en masse.

When challenged on this, each of those commentators has said that their murderous rhetoric is something that any reasonable person would know isn't meant to be taken literally. It's the same as all those late-night conversations we've nearly all had over pizza and drinks over who would we kill if we had no time left to live, like I alluded to above. They keep insisting that it cannot possibly be their fault, even though with the exception of one or two attacks on fundamentalist organizations by disgruntled ex-members, almost every single church that has been burned in America, or shot up in America, in the last two decades, has been a liberal church, burned down or shot up by someone who listened to their radio shows, read their books, watched their TV shows and appearances, and credited them for having given the order to do so. So no, we shouldn't be at all surprised that even though his grudge against Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church was personal even more than it was political, the talking points of David Adkisson's 4-page suicide note came out of all of those same right wing commentators' books and shows, and when police searched Adkisson's home, they found an entire library of the stuff. His original grudge may have started out personal, but it was a political party that gave him the permission to murder those he had a grudge against.

Ironically, it is just exactly this kind of thing that's why Charlie Manson will spend the rest of his life rotting in jail. Nobody has ever even alleged that he was at the site of the murders that his cultists committed. Nor is there even any even halfway credible allegation that he gave a direct order, that night, to go out and kill those people. No, "all" that Charlie Manson did was recruit unhinged followers, and then feed them a steady diet of how certain people deserved to die, how great it would be if someone went out and butchered them. And when he couldn't believe that he was put on trial for the fact that his followers blamed him for their crimes, for having given them explicit permission to slaughter his political enemies, when he mocked the prosecution and the court for not having any evidence that he actually meant it or intended them to do so or gave any orders, this did him no good at all. Yet somehow, no matter what David Adkisson said in what he meant to be his suicide note, I'm not holding my breath waiting for Michael Savage, or Ann Coulter or any of the others, to be convicted for having given him the order to kill. Michael Savage, after all, is a rich Republican, not a dirt-poor hippy ex-convict.

Dave Neiwert, and I, aren't actually calling for the Rush Limbaughs and Bill O'Reillys and Sean Hannitys of America to go to jail for ordering the murder of two people, and the attempted murder of many more, at Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church, or the murder of so many other liberals by those commentators' depressed or enraged fans. Nor are we calling for such rantings to be made illegal; we're both First Amendment absolutists. No, what we're calling for is for Americans to wake up, and change their attitudes. We want to live in an America where when a prominent spokesperson for a political party "jokes" about sending their audience out to mass-murder their political opponents, it should and must shock our consciences. That person must become the kind of instant social pariah that people quite justly become when they make openly racist remarks. What you talk about in private, with people who know you're not serious, is one thing; what they broadcast or publish to an eager audience gets innocent people killed by the dozens, and if that doesn't bother them enough to stop them from continuing to do it, then there is just plain something that malevolently wrong with them, something just that deeply disgusting about them. And no matter what your politics are, if you aren't just plainly that disgusted about their ongoing eliminationist rhetoric, there's something wrong with you, too.



Addendum: There is, happy to say, one bit of notable heroism that must, absolutely must, be called out here; hat-tip to Neiwert's blogging partner, the Campaign for America's Future's Sara Robinson, herself a Unitarian, for pointing it out in her blog post, "Of Madmen and Martyrs" (dneiewert.blogspot.com, 7/28/08).

The note left in his car makes it clear that, in addition to mass murder, David Adkisson planned to commit either suicide, or "suicide by cop." He walked into that liberal church during a children's-program musical with a 3-shot shotgun and 76 rounds of ammunition, enough to kill every adult in there. And from the history of mass shootings in America, he "knew" not to be worried about the fact that every 3 shots, he was going to have to reload. Adkisson "knew" that once a cold-blooded killer like him starts working a room, people cower under furniture. Some primitive "go to ground" reflex keeps them paralyzed and shivering, hoping that the predator won't notice them, hoping the predator will move on and kill someone else instead. And in the first few seconds of the shooting, many people did just that, so I'm sure he was confident that his plan was working, that he could indeed kill these religious liberals at his leisure, either saving the last bullet for himself or provoking the cops to kill him when the time came. But then he stopped to reload ... and those anti-war liberals did something a right-wing conservative must have found terribly shocking. They turned, and swarmed him. They broke his arm disarming him, and six of them pinned him to the floor. And then, rather than take any kind of revenge on a man who murdered people in front of a group of little children, they peacefully and quietly held him there until the cops came to take him off of their hands. And I can not tell you how proud I am of them as Americans for having done that.



Newspaper sources, all from the Knoxville (Tennessee) News Sentinel:

Comments

[info]vee_ecks wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 08:11 am (UTC)
Thanks for writing this, all of it. The first thing that came to mind when I read about this tragedy, yesterday, was the shock-jock radio listener who kicks off the plot of The Fisher King.
[info]rozasharn wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 08:27 am (UTC)
If the women who got jobs all filed for divorce too, then it wasn't just a matter of money: they could have stayed with their husbands, had less living expense, and had the emotional benefit of still being on the familiar two-person team. Unless it wasn't a team.

If the wives all left even when their income was from a job rather than from another guy, that means the men hadn't been contributing anything besides money to the marriage. Losing their jobs just meant they couldn't bribe their wives to stay in an unhappy marriage; no-fault divorce just meant they couldn't coerce unhappy wives into staying. I don't have much sympathy for guys complaining they can't bribe or coerce women into putting up with bad treatment; that's exactly why feminists dismiss men's complaints.
[info]bradhicks wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 08:36 am (UTC)
We don't know what Adkisson and his then wife were arguing about that night, back in 2000, when he offered to solve their mutual problem by shooting her and then killing himself. Neither they, nor their friends, have described the argument itself, just the end. Might have been about his being out of work; the laws against discrimination against Vietnam vets are there for a reason. Might have been about him being out of work; he apparently often was. Nor do I fault TVUUC for telling her that once a guy points a gun at you, it is time to get out of that relationship and for good, nor for helping her throw him out of the house; it's the same advice I would have given.

But you must admit that it's not what "for better and for worse, for richer and for poorer, in sickness and in health, so long as you both shall live" means, is it?
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[info]nationelectric wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 08:28 am (UTC)
There's a simple solution to this, and it's a boycott. If enough liberals write in to the advertisers on these programs, and say, "Here's how much I spent with you over the last year. You are currently funding a person who is actively urging millions of people to kill me. That is incredibly offensive to me, so you will not get another dime of my money." -- and if a large number of liberals (and hey, possibly some conservatives) actually do that -- the Limbaughs of the world may start to find that some of their easy attention-grabbing tricks aren't quite as easy anymore.

Limbaugh and Coulter et al figured out long ago how to capitalize upon "pariah" status -- waiting for their audience to reject them is going to be a loooong wait. No, you've gotta hit 'em in the pocketbook. If this kind of talk becomes economically disadvantageous, it'll become socially unacceptable a whole lot faster.


They turned, and swarmed him. They broke his arm disarming him, and six of them pinned him to the floor. And then, rather than take any kind of revenge on a man who murdered people in front of a group of little children, they peacefully and quietly held him there until the cops came to take him off of their hands.

WOW.
[info]bradhicks wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 08:41 am (UTC)
Yeah. I want to tear up just thinking about it. If he'd had two guns, if he'd had a handgun holdout weapon to prevent just this, the first couple of people to come at him after he opened up the shotgun would have been pretty badly screwed. That's heroism. And then not taking any kind of revenge on him once they had him helpless, while screaming and crying traumatized children were still being herded to the church next door to be cared for, was heroism again.
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[info]ff00ff wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 09:41 am (UTC)
I've never wanted to be a part of a church. I'm an avowed strong atheist. I found myself looking up the nearest Unitarian church to my home. It's a bikeride away. I wonder if they are people like that Tennessee congregation, who could hold a crazed murderer and turn him over to the authorities after he interrupted such an innocent gathering.
[info]pseydtonne wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 10:53 am (UTC)
If you go, bring some banana bread. It's a UU staple. You'll learn more about sharing the concept of religion and what is in a person's heart when you bring something yummy to the table.
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[info]magentamn wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 01:13 pm (UTC)
I wonder if this line of reasoning is also why many right-wing men are afraid of lesbians seducing their wives. They know they are just a meal ticket, that true love is often elsewhere, especially for the woman. And how many married men go to hookers of one sort or another? The institution of marriage has broken down to a large extent, not that it was ever very good, often just legalized prostitution. And I don't want to live in an institution.
[info]athenemiranda wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 09:49 pm (UTC)
My father (a wingnut) moved away from London when I and my sister were very young because he 'didn't want them being taught compulsory lesbianism'. I don't even think it's about being 'just a meal ticket' - that by itself might be okay, but I think it's knowing that other people ask for more than that, and being crushingly insecure about your ability to provide it, which sends them over the edge. Coupled with a good dose of sexual repression.
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[info]nancylebov wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 01:15 pm (UTC)
http://pecunium.livejournal.com/327228.html?view=2599740#t2599740/ about this being domestic terrorism.

I've noticed the long campaign to define white man as shorthand for "person who should not have power and whose complaints need not be listened to", and it makes me uneasy. Likewise for "You go, girl!" Girls have a cheering section that boys simply don't. I'm not denying that a lot of sexism is still in place, but laying a new dehumanizing system on top of it isn't a good solution.

I still think it's really funny that one of the things which has contributed to a black man probably being president is that the right demonized Hillary Clinton.

Does the reluctance to hire "over-qualified" people really make sense? I agree that it's there, and can be a serious problem for people with good resumes, but does it make business sense? It seems to me that over-qualified people learn faster and are less likely to make stupid mistakes, and these are huge pluses that aren't usually considered.
[info]feedle wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 01:24 pm (UTC)
"Overqualified" people are more likely to know their rights and have resources to enforce them (read: to already know a good attorney).

"Overqualified" people are more likely to challenge a front-line supervisor or middle-level manager who is incompetent, and (the even bigger sin) might be able to gun for that person's job.

On both of these counts, I've been told pretty much exactly that from HR when I've tried to hire somebody overqualified for an entry-level IT job.
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[info]reannon wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 01:41 pm (UTC)
Let's set aside Adkisson for the moment, since his wife likely left him because he was a hate-filled flaming NUTJOB. Those businessmen of the 1980s and 1990s - their wives only looked at them as meal tickets? Or is it possible that feminism DID break up those marriages, but in another way?

Isn't it possible that the men being laid off forced these stay-at-home wives to go to work.. and the women liked it? Most women don't work just because they need to bring in some cash - they work for the same reasons men work. To fulfill an avocation, to feel a sense of accomplishment, the pride in knowing your work supports your family, a way to have a life beyond home-grocery store-church-home.

I think "feminism," a word that means less and less as its meaning is perverted beyond all recognition, was less a factor than these Susy Homemakers finding their own identity and their husbands couldn't handle it. What do you mean, you don't want to stay home and bake anymore? Easier to blame the evil feminists than for those men to take a hard, solid look at themselves and their attitudes, easier to wallow in self-pity - "I can't get a job because I'm better than those jobs!" - than to suck it up and realize the world changed, time to change with it.

I think the people above are right: a marriage is more than a common bank account, and if it falls apart because he loses his job, the real marriage died a long time ago and the bank account was the only thing keeping them together. As a woman who stayed with her husband through fourteen jobs in five years, I know what is and is not worth fighting for.
[info]feedle wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 03:14 pm (UTC)
Those businessmen of the 1980s and 1990s - their wives only looked at them as meal tickets?

It's worth noting (even if it is a nitpick) that the "businessmen" in question were not "businessmen." The types of people that I believe we're talking about (those who worked in the aerospace industries in Southern California who were laid off in the late-80's and early-90's) were largely blue-collar workers that came to California after the manufacturing sector in the Midwest and the Rust Belt collapsed, and were earning salaries considerably higher than it was likely they could collect outside the aerospace industry.

Having grew up in SoCal, and having many friends who were late-teens and twentysomethings when all this went down, I can tell you that a lot of blue-collar men from Ohio, Michigan, Iowa, and similar were earning $50k/year doing jobs that paid $25k "back home": assembly line jobs, shipping/receiving jobs, truck drivers and journeyman machinists and mechanics. It was quite a culture-shock to these families to suddenly have a $1,200/month mortgage and little income.

"Businessmen" indeed. It tore up a lot of families of my generation of Angelenos.
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[info]kukla_tko42 wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 02:06 pm (UTC)
Just a random thought for you:

Feminism did not create the situation those men are angry about. Generations of the repression of women created that situation.
Women are not, by nature, greedy gold-diggers who will ditch their man at the first sign of financial trouble.
(Any more than men, by their nature, want docile housekeepers who do their duty in bed.)

The sexism created the customs. When you aren't allowed to own property in your name, when you aren't allowed to inherit wealth, when you aren't allowed to voice your opinion, and when you aren't allowed to be without a husband for fear of being called a spinster, a widow, or worse... you teach your daughters how to survive.
"Get a man, any way you can. Here's a nice list of qualities you should be looking for. Make sure that he makes enough money to support the two of you and any children you make together. If you pick the 'wrong' man, you're just plain screwed, so be very careful about who you choose, because if he doesn't work... you won't be able to."
Even a few generations of this, followed abruptly by, "Ta-Da! No-fault divorce is available!"
Without the re-training of the way women were programmed to behave, is anyone surprised that the wealthy guys' wives (who had sought them out in the first place due to their "potential" as the only source of income they were allowed) didn't seek out jobs to support their husbands?
They had never been taught to do this. They had never been allowed to consider working outside the home; working in the home is the only thing they considered themselves qualified *for*.

Sexism hurts everyone. Feminism is oftentimes STILL sexism swinging the other direction. No-Fault divorce was designed to offer women a chance to end bad, harmful marriages, because there were a LOT of those going on, too.
That a handful of gold-diggers (who hadn't been taught much better) used it to hurt their suddenly-unemployed husbands doesn't mean that this was happening everywhere, or that every woman would do so.

Equality, and teaching everyone (men and women alike) how to handle this equality, that's the only way to heal the hurt.
[info]sunfell wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 02:41 pm (UTC)
I became a feminist because of my mother. She was a 'traditional' wife- left her parents' home and went straight to my dad's. She was pretty much locked-in- not physically, but she had no car, no job, nothing outside her span of being a housewife.

She was miserable. But she stuck with it until her untimely death- because she'd had it pounded into her by her religion and her family that this was her duty- her ultimate fate.

I was determined not to suffer that fate. I left home at 19, and never looked back. I am independent, employed, and self- sufficient. I do not need a man to define me- but I don't hate them. They can just be 'over there'- and not underfoot.

I could have easily followed in my mom's footsteps- my sister almost did, but ended up divorced. I chose to reap the benefits of personhood that feminism has given to women.
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[info]browngirl wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 02:09 pm (UTC)
I followed a link here, and I wanted to thank you for this post. Not because I agree with every word of it (others have defended feminism better than I would) but because each point, whether I agreed or not, has enlightened me. One don't have to agree with someone angry enough to shoot up a church in order to understand how he justified the act to himself, and I think what you've written has helped me understand a little better.
[info]nellorat wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 02:10 pm (UTC)
Wonderful insights about male rage. As I say above, it's best to understand everyone's true feelings and thoughts, even or especially if you don't agree.

For a literary project, I've read a lot of fundamentalist Christian fiction--Frank Peretti. the whole (but only the original) Left Behind series--and I can see why many people think of conservative Christians as a big power group, yet the conservative Christians themselves feel like a persecuted minority. (There is an excellent article in The Journal of Popular Culture that explores this as well.) It's really possible for both/all sides in any conflict to feel like the victim.

With all that agreement, slight disagreement: I agree with everything you say about Manson except the word "hippie." Ex-con, yes. His running of the group was from his training as a pimp; his followers put a hippie gloss on it, and he adopted the lingo, but I won't even use the word "hippie" for him.
[info]anfalicious wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2008 12:09 am (UTC)
Can I just point out that the term "male rage" is every bit as sexist as "female hysteria".
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[info]idonotlikepeas wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 02:38 pm (UTC)
They turned, and swarmed him. They broke his arm disarming him, and six of them pinned him to the floor. And then, rather than take any kind of revenge on a man who murdered people in front of a group of little children, they peacefully and quietly held him there until the cops came to take him off of their hands. And I can not tell you how proud I am of them as Americans for having done that.

Yes.
[info]dd_b wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 02:55 pm (UTC)
Yep, fighting back is always the best choice. This became the national consensus with flight 93 on 9/11, but it was fairly well-known before then.
[info]ponsdorf wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 03:22 pm (UTC)
Interesting analysis, although I'll admit I find more disquieting stuff at the DU than I ever heard attributed to those right wing types you named. I'll go read Neiwert's material shortly.

Thanks.

Aide: Even though I think it's silly to argue with most liberals I don't advocate violence as plan B. Many liberals maintain an almost religious faith in their positions and it's silly to argue about matters of faith. [grin]

[info]joxn wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 05:47 pm (UTC)
What's the DU?
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[info]martinhesselius wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 05:18 pm (UTC)

Very well said.
[info]patina wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 06:03 pm (UTC)
I don't know you, but...
May I link to this from my journal? I think it's one of the most thought-provoking things I've read in a while.
[info]bradhicks wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 06:54 pm (UTC)
Re: I don't know you, but...
You, and anyone else who wants to do so, may link to this, or anything else I write, from anywhere, for any reason, at any time. I would in fact be flattered if you did so. I write this stuff in hopes that it will be read.
[info]satyrblade wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 06:06 pm (UTC)
Ted Nugent wound up on my "never listen to again" list after his remarks about shooting Hillary Clinton and Barak Obama last year. Gee, I wonder if anyone's taken Terrible Ted to task about this thing. Actually, knowing Ted, he's probably hosting a banquet in Adkissin's honor. Scumbag.
[info]cuglas wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 06:31 pm (UTC)
No fault divorce laws screw over lots of people, not just men. The poverty rate for divorced women with kids in this country is much higher than that of men.

It's not feminism that screwed those guys. It's patriarchy.

These men constructed a nice traditional patriarchal marriage. Man works, woman stays home, man is bread winner and head of household. As the wage earner, these men had a great amount of privilege in that relationship. When they lost their status as bread winner, they lost the privilege as well. These guys didn't sign up for egalitarian relationships. It's sort of unbelievable that they then go on to complain that their wives are not acting as equal partners until they get back on their feet when they have never treated their wives as equals before.

It's totally excepted, though, that these men whine and blame women and feminism. Men who buy into patriarchal male privilege ALWAYS blame women when they get shafted by a patriarchal system. To blame the patriarchy, they would have to assess their willing consent to their own ruin.
[info]cuglas wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 06:47 pm (UTC)
It's also unbelievably appalling that the proposed solution to to give these men more control over women, so that they can make their women behave. The solution to the failure of a marriage in a patriarchal system shouldn't be to give men more power to control the behavior of women. It's exactly that type of inequality which caused these marriages to fail in the first place.
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Money is power. - [info]cuglas - Jul. 29th, 2008 09:49 pm (UTC) Expand
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... - [info]athenemiranda - Aug. 1st, 2008 11:33 pm (UTC) Expand
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Playing devil's advocate - [info]neonchameleon - Jul. 31st, 2008 04:50 pm (UTC) Expand
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[info]st_ranger wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 06:42 pm (UTC)
A close friend of mine attends this church. This congregation is such a gentle group, really just lambs. I guess if you're going to attack a church, it makes a certain sick sense to attack one of the few congregations that might actually forgive you for doing so.
[info]kimchalister wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2008 05:08 am (UTC)
I read the description of what happened, noticed that they tackled the guy and held him down till the police arrived, and thought, "How typically UU!"
The gentleman who stood up and got killed to protect others is truly a hero -- as are those who tackled the shooter.
I don't think my reactions would be that fast -- I got the impression that Mr. McKendry took the first blast in his chest. He must have assessed the situation much faster than I can think. That's not typically UU -- we usually take forever to make a decision.
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[info]ithildae wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 08:23 pm (UTC)
I read this with a certain amount of bemused detachment. I really appreciate the way you think, even though I do not always agree. I remember, starting in the seventies, TV and movie producers denying before the public and congress that their content did not influence behavior. I still hear that same, tired refrain, "Our content has no influence on the behavior or attitudes of our audience." Yet, the claim here is that radio content directly influenced the behavior of unhappy people. I believe it, but it is hard to credit from a liberal source.

I wish I could comment on the output of the conservative "talk radio" hosts, but the ratio of add time to programming (let's not even talk about content) drives me right out of my skull by about the second commercial break. I have never listened long enough for a point to be made (if they ever are.) I have no idea about "marching orders."

I suspect that any movement, driven to extremes, will have extremists. Painting the entire movement by the actions of those on the fringe seems somehow unjust. (Even if it is politics as usual.)
[info]joxn wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2008 08:55 pm (UTC)
The point is, you can't call Ann Coulter, Michael Savage, Glenn Beck, and Bill O'Reilly "the fringe". They have teevee and radio shows with millions in their audience, as well as lucrative and aggressively-promoted book contracts. Like it or not, they're mainstream. And they're the folks who are (in Ann Coulter's case) wishing out loud for the NY Times to be blown up, or for conservatives to engage liberals with baseball bats.
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[info]arachnophiliac wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2008 04:55 am (UTC)
Great work connecting the dots as usual, Brad. Or at least calling attention to the work of those who already have. :)

Incidentally, I recommend Faludi's latest, The Terror Dream, which isn't a classic of feminist cultural criticism by any means, but still an illuminating read. It's hard not to at least nod in half agreement as Faludi traces America's cultural responses to 9/11 back to the French and Indian Wars.

I just finished Rick Perlstein's Nixonland not too long ago, and I may have pimped it before on your journal, but let me do so again. Not only is it one of the best works of political history I've read in some time, but it's chock full of topics that you often discuss. With respect to Adkisson's crimes, well, it gets to the heart of the book's thesis: Richard M. Nixon was handmaiden and herald for a brand of American politics that decreed the political Them to be the Enemy, and therefore acceptable to wage war against. Appropriately, Perlstein dedicates the book to the Americans murdered between 1965 and 1972 by other Americans for reasons of ideology. He also adds in the final paragraphs that while we are still dwelling in Nixonland, we haven't yet descended to that same point. I guess Adkisson proved him wrong.
[info]belleweather wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2008 06:08 am (UTC)
I think you're wrong about no-fault divorce. I'm typing this all from memory, rather than with my family law materials, but here's my recollection: While the expansion of no-fault increased the numbers of divorce, the increase was more because of pent-up demand than because of increased marital disharmony. And the pent up demand was less an issue of being unable to get a divorce because the other party wouldn't consent than it was being unwilling to take on the effort that a fault-based divorce entailed. Divorces were still available prior to no-fault, and the requirements for findings of fault were very very pro forma, especially in the late 1950s and 1960's. But 'fault' was explicity taken into consideration when it came time to divide property and settle spousal support because if she was alleging a fault that showed her in a less than angelic light, she'd likely starve in the hedgerows.

Honestly, from reading pretty extensively into the case law from some of those early no-fault cases, as well as some contemporary sociological stuff, my take on it is this: Men didn't try very hard. Not because they were bad people, but because their expectation was that they didn't have to. They had been raised with the idea that bringing home the bacon was enough, and couldn't adjust to the changes that happened when it suddenly wasn't. Post- WWII there was a huge romantisizing of marriage and the idea that it should exemplif togetherness and sexual hotness and romantic adoration and deep emotional and spiritual connection used as a hook to bring women back to the home and "normalize" things after the war. Men as a class, didn't get a memo on that. I don't think that it occurred to anyone in advertising or publishing that there would be repurcussions to selling a generation of very silly young girls on these overly-romantic notions of married life, or that perhaps they ought to tell a similar story to the people they were expecting to be their partners.
[info]hick0ry wrote:
Jul. 31st, 2008 06:54 am (UTC)
I don't think that it occurred to anyone in advertising or publishing that there would be repercussions to selling a generation of very silly young girls on these overly-romantic notions of married life
I can't help but laugh at the image of June Cleaver spoofing Tyler Durden's Fight Club speech on the realization that advertisers had been lying.
[info]anfalicious wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2008 08:31 am (UTC)
Sorry for hijacking your thread Brad. Roza was right, this did touch a nerve.
[info]mari_who wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2008 02:44 pm (UTC)
I don't have anything to say about the shooting that hasn't been said already, so I'll refrain, except to express my sorrow.

But the response thread went in a different direction, and I'd read something a few weeks ago that was interesting, so figured I'd link it as relevant to the feminism/no-fault-divorce/gender privilege discussion:

http://onceupon.livejournal.com/1110731.html

...the actual post is about racial privilege but expands through the comments to gender issues, etc.

[info]anfalicious wrote:
Jul. 31st, 2008 03:51 am (UTC)
I've read that before, I don't disagree with it by and large, but it's worth using it to look at where a lot of problems come from.

For example; the ideas of exclusionary space being OK for the oppressed, and the idea of privilege.

Just as it is wrong for me, as a white male, to lump all women and people of colour together, it's wrong to lump all white males together. Many of us don't see this privilege. That's not to say it doesn't exist, but just because there's lots of white males at the top, doesn't mean there aren't a lot at the bottom. And when those at the bottom here someone telling them how better off they are for their privilege, they say "what the fuck? I'm living in a cardboard box ffs". So a lot of anger and confusion flows from there.

I'll tell you what is more likely to be an indicator of privilege than colour or gender? Money. But because there is apparently no classes in this modern democratic, capitalist wonderland of ours, it's often forgotten about. I could imagine a woman seeing a rich white man in power and thinking "it's because he's a man", or a coloured person "it's because he's white". Those things, historically are important, but only insofar as to be rich and powerful, it's usually something accumulated through generations. So they're old families with old values. Lots of us white men see them and think "it's because they're rich". Then we see a woman in power... She's rich. Then a black man... He's rich. And we start thinking, where's the money that this privilege is supposed to be giving me?

Privilege exists, but I think it's overly simplistic to think it's white/male privilege. It just seems that way because of the historicity of it. Nowadays, it's money privilege.
(Anonymous) wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2008 10:51 pm (UTC)
as an aside to outraged feminists from an ex feminist
I don't recall him actually saying "...and because I have some sympathy for 'angry white men' I want X, Y and Z" ...filling in those variables with suitable outrages like antiabortion laws, stronger pay inequity laws, less accessible daycare, less shelters for abused women, less ability for women to divorce abusive spouses etc etc. He DID NOT advocate ANYTHING like that. And some people are busy tearing up in fine outrage over how _dare_ he say "the other side" ever suffered too. Ah, how vile Brad would try to re-humanize the punching bags feminists make of "average traditional men". It doesn't matter if "the other side" dehumanizes us. You don't go tit for tat. That's not how to found a better way. (You defend yourself of course.)

People bitch about the conservative ideologues and then go and still a chapter from their playbook "our faction NEVER does anything wrong and the people we clash with NEVER do anything right and ANY RIGHT THINKING PERSON would see this and be appalled that they aren't forced to submit to Our Righteous Cause." Reading flamewars like this one remind me why I have no hope for the future. I only mention this from pure anger that people can spout such nonsense and act so self satisfied that they're so smart to have seen "the truth". Life is just a bit more complicated than single issue hot button politics. Vae Victis is a _Stupid_ sociopolitical ethos because you can't win all the time.
[info]nancylebov wrote:
Jul. 31st, 2008 01:17 pm (UTC)
Maybe the net has lowered my standards too much, but I'm very pleased with the discussion in this thread. I'm seeing much more rationality and efforts to see opposing points of view than is usual in discussions of such a difficult topic.