I've been meaning to bring this up for a while, obviously, because it's about something that Senator Clinton said in her last debate with Senator Obama, the one right before the Pennsylvania primaries. I see that she's still taking occasional flak from various members of the commentariat over this one answer, so this gives me a good opportunity to do something you will almost never see me do: defend Hillary Clinton. Because this one time, she's being criticized for what may, in fact, be the only completely honest and halfway intelligent thing she's said during the whole campaign.
In particular, it was one of those hypothetical future questions that debate moderators think make them look so smart and issues-oriented. (As far as I'm concerned, they're wrong. The correct answer to any future hypothetical is, "I don't know, because I can't know all the facts that I'll know then. So all I can promise is that I'll do the best I can with the information I'll have then." But no, instead, politics requires that the candidates play along with these goofy role-playing scenarios. I find it annoying.) The question was, let's assume that all our efforts to keep Iran from developing nuclear weapons fail, and some time during your presidential term, Iran gets The Bomb. What should we do? Unsurprisingly, both candidates said, "let's be sure it never gets to that point." But Clinton went further, saying that we should also make it clear to Iran that if they use weapons of mass destruction against Israel, then even if they managed to take out Israel's (she didn't say nuclear, but we all know it) deterrent in the strike, we'd respond with all available force, up to and including nukes. Note, by the way, that this is not the same thing as McCain's glib and flippant answer to the same question, where he simply joked or hinted or whatever that he'd be in favor of nuking Iran preemptively as soon as they got the bomb; that, now that? That answer is completely irresponsible, but that's not even in the same ballpark as saying that we'd nuke Iran in response to Iran using its nuke(s).
Her answer went on to them point out that if there were a Shiite nuclear bomb in the middle east, that would increase pressure on all the Sunni states in the region, including US "allies" like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, to resume their nuclear programs. So she went on to say that we should offer all of the states within range of Iran's hypothetical future nukes this deal: we will include you in our nuclear deterrent "umbrella," we will promise to nuke all of Iran into a sheet of green glowing glass if they nuke you first, in exchange for a promise from you to not develop your own nukes.
This is not a stupid answer, let alone a crazy one. Nor, and here's the part that makes me want to thwap not a few network news reporters upside the head, is it even all that new or controversial an idea. No, on the contrary, we've known ever since Herman "Dr. Strangelove" Kahn made this point 50 years ago that once one of two potential enemies has an atomic bomb, the other side has to have their own bomb, in order to be able to credibly threaten to nuke someone back if they get nuked. The need for mutually assured destruction has always been the critical flaw in the idea of nuclear non-proliferation. But nuclear non-proliferation wasn't stupid, itself; it rested on the idea (however plausible you think it is; I think "not very") that increasing proliferation of nuclear arsenals increases the chances of accidental or terrorist-triggered global thermonuclear holocaust. This was a substantial part of the logic of the Cold War: to sign up every potential combatant in any war in the world into one of the two nuclear-armed factions, so that they could rest assured that there was somebody with nukes who'd nuke their enemies back if they got nuked themselves.
And, in fact, over the course of the last half of the Cold War, there was a growing diplomatic consensus that if any nation used its nuclear weapons without itself being nuked, this would trigger a nuclear response from other nuclear powers, up to and including maybe even its own nuclear-armed allies, that America only got away with nuking Japan in 1945 because there was no one to threaten to nuke us back for it yet. There was even a determined diplomatic effort, world-wide, to codify this into law, in a No First Use global treaty. It never got anywhere, because the doctrine of "no first use" pinched every US president in a tight place; we were committed to defend western Europe from a possible Soviet conventional-forces invasion, and there was no way for us to win such a war without using nukes. So the US, alone, clung to the right to First Use of nukes, even though this made us something of a pariah state (even as far back as the 1970s), even though every president who contemplated the possible future need to nuke the Fulda Pass to stop Russian infantry and armor had to know we'd get nuked by Russia if we did, even though it came close to costing us the whole Cold War when the West German people elected a government that threatened to leave NATO if the US didn't abandon its First Use threat and withdraw the short-range nuclear weapons we were planning to use in the event of a Russian invasion of West Germany. And every President since back when Dr. Strangelove made his points about nuclear strategy has clung to this ambiguity over whether we would, or wouldn't, use nukes preemptively. Heck, it's part of why Reagan cultivated the image, during his first terms, of a deranged and belligerent cowboy; he wanted his Soviet counterpart to be a little bit afraid that Reagan was just crazy enough to start World War III if pushed hard enough.
But back to the potential Iran problem. Hillary's suggestion amounts to something very close to No First Use, without the US political baggage that would come from trying to push a No First Use treaty through the US Senate: a unilateral commitment to only use our nuclear arsenal in our own defense or our allies' defense (while leaving it unanswered whether or not we'd respond in a nuclear fashion to any non-nuclear attack, letting the history of all the times we haven't yet to speak for itself) or for a nuclear counter-attack on any non-proliferating nation. I think it's actually an elegant, nuanced, and plausible solution. If I thought she were always this smart, and if I trusted her with my country's wallet, I'd vote for her myself. So it kind of annoys me to see her attacked for this one thing. If you want to attack her for her disastrous record during her husband's administration, for the abysmal quality of the cabinet members she recommended to him, for her long history of financial scandals, for her almost equally long history of sticking up for giant corporations over actual voters, for her sad and scary history of sucking up to some of the scariest people in the religious right, for her newfound admiration for Fox News and Richard Mellon Scaife, for the mean-spirited and deeply dishonest (and flagrantly incompetent) campaign she's run for the presidential nomination, and for her mind bogglingly stupid vote for, and early defense of, George Bush's war in Iraq, knock yourselves out. But leave her alone on the issue of Iran and a possible expansion of US policy of nuclear deterrence, because she's almost certainly the only one running who's right on this one.
In particular, it was one of those hypothetical future questions that debate moderators think make them look so smart and issues-oriented. (As far as I'm concerned, they're wrong. The correct answer to any future hypothetical is, "I don't know, because I can't know all the facts that I'll know then. So all I can promise is that I'll do the best I can with the information I'll have then." But no, instead, politics requires that the candidates play along with these goofy role-playing scenarios. I find it annoying.) The question was, let's assume that all our efforts to keep Iran from developing nuclear weapons fail, and some time during your presidential term, Iran gets The Bomb. What should we do? Unsurprisingly, both candidates said, "let's be sure it never gets to that point." But Clinton went further, saying that we should also make it clear to Iran that if they use weapons of mass destruction against Israel, then even if they managed to take out Israel's (she didn't say nuclear, but we all know it) deterrent in the strike, we'd respond with all available force, up to and including nukes. Note, by the way, that this is not the same thing as McCain's glib and flippant answer to the same question, where he simply joked or hinted or whatever that he'd be in favor of nuking Iran preemptively as soon as they got the bomb; that, now that? That answer is completely irresponsible, but that's not even in the same ballpark as saying that we'd nuke Iran in response to Iran using its nuke(s).
Her answer went on to them point out that if there were a Shiite nuclear bomb in the middle east, that would increase pressure on all the Sunni states in the region, including US "allies" like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, to resume their nuclear programs. So she went on to say that we should offer all of the states within range of Iran's hypothetical future nukes this deal: we will include you in our nuclear deterrent "umbrella," we will promise to nuke all of Iran into a sheet of green glowing glass if they nuke you first, in exchange for a promise from you to not develop your own nukes.
This is not a stupid answer, let alone a crazy one. Nor, and here's the part that makes me want to thwap not a few network news reporters upside the head, is it even all that new or controversial an idea. No, on the contrary, we've known ever since Herman "Dr. Strangelove" Kahn made this point 50 years ago that once one of two potential enemies has an atomic bomb, the other side has to have their own bomb, in order to be able to credibly threaten to nuke someone back if they get nuked. The need for mutually assured destruction has always been the critical flaw in the idea of nuclear non-proliferation. But nuclear non-proliferation wasn't stupid, itself; it rested on the idea (however plausible you think it is; I think "not very") that increasing proliferation of nuclear arsenals increases the chances of accidental or terrorist-triggered global thermonuclear holocaust. This was a substantial part of the logic of the Cold War: to sign up every potential combatant in any war in the world into one of the two nuclear-armed factions, so that they could rest assured that there was somebody with nukes who'd nuke their enemies back if they got nuked themselves.
And, in fact, over the course of the last half of the Cold War, there was a growing diplomatic consensus that if any nation used its nuclear weapons without itself being nuked, this would trigger a nuclear response from other nuclear powers, up to and including maybe even its own nuclear-armed allies, that America only got away with nuking Japan in 1945 because there was no one to threaten to nuke us back for it yet. There was even a determined diplomatic effort, world-wide, to codify this into law, in a No First Use global treaty. It never got anywhere, because the doctrine of "no first use" pinched every US president in a tight place; we were committed to defend western Europe from a possible Soviet conventional-forces invasion, and there was no way for us to win such a war without using nukes. So the US, alone, clung to the right to First Use of nukes, even though this made us something of a pariah state (even as far back as the 1970s), even though every president who contemplated the possible future need to nuke the Fulda Pass to stop Russian infantry and armor had to know we'd get nuked by Russia if we did, even though it came close to costing us the whole Cold War when the West German people elected a government that threatened to leave NATO if the US didn't abandon its First Use threat and withdraw the short-range nuclear weapons we were planning to use in the event of a Russian invasion of West Germany. And every President since back when Dr. Strangelove made his points about nuclear strategy has clung to this ambiguity over whether we would, or wouldn't, use nukes preemptively. Heck, it's part of why Reagan cultivated the image, during his first terms, of a deranged and belligerent cowboy; he wanted his Soviet counterpart to be a little bit afraid that Reagan was just crazy enough to start World War III if pushed hard enough.
But back to the potential Iran problem. Hillary's suggestion amounts to something very close to No First Use, without the US political baggage that would come from trying to push a No First Use treaty through the US Senate: a unilateral commitment to only use our nuclear arsenal in our own defense or our allies' defense (while leaving it unanswered whether or not we'd respond in a nuclear fashion to any non-nuclear attack, letting the history of all the times we haven't yet to speak for itself) or for a nuclear counter-attack on any non-proliferating nation. I think it's actually an elegant, nuanced, and plausible solution. If I thought she were always this smart, and if I trusted her with my country's wallet, I'd vote for her myself. So it kind of annoys me to see her attacked for this one thing. If you want to attack her for her disastrous record during her husband's administration, for the abysmal quality of the cabinet members she recommended to him, for her long history of financial scandals, for her almost equally long history of sticking up for giant corporations over actual voters, for her sad and scary history of sucking up to some of the scariest people in the religious right, for her newfound admiration for Fox News and Richard Mellon Scaife, for the mean-spirited and deeply dishonest (and flagrantly incompetent) campaign she's run for the presidential nomination, and for her mind bogglingly stupid vote for, and early defense of, George Bush's war in Iraq, knock yourselves out. But leave her alone on the issue of Iran and a possible expansion of US policy of nuclear deterrence, because she's almost certainly the only one running who's right on this one.
- Mood:
okay


Comments
> clear to Iran that if they use weapons of mass destruction
> against Israel, then even if they managed to take out
> Israel's (she didn't say nuclear, but we all know it)
> deterrent in the strike, we'd respond with all available
> force, up to and including nukes.
She is still taking sides in a dangerous way. I would feel much more comfortable is she also said that if Israel used weapons of mass destruction on any Arab county, the US would respond with all available force, up to and including nukes.
Yeaaaaah...if you're gonna talk about something, KNOW what you're talking about first.
Going and calling it a "concentration camp" is just stupid.
People who were sexually abused as children have a tendency to become sexual abusers unless their traumas are dealt with. Israel sure seems to me to act like it has become very much like the fascists who abused their ancestors. Israel sure seems like it needs massive mental health counseling far more than it needs US aid for weapons to do more nastiness.
No, they were drive out of the way by the Arab League nations who invaded Israel to "drive the Jews into the sea". "Get out of the way so we can kick their asses, then you can have your land back" was the deal. Of course, the Jews turned out to be too competent at defending themselves, so the Palestinian Arabs who left were unable to return. The Arab League could have taken them in as citizens, but they resolved not to allow that, as I said above.
As for those Palestinian Arabs who didn't leave their homes, who stayed in what is now the state of Israel? Well, they're citizens now. They have full rights as citizens of Israel.
You need to learn better history before you spout off like this.
-------------------
In 1988, Morris published "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949," which revolutionized Israeli historiography and, to a great extent, a nation's understanding of its own birth. Relying less on testimony than on the newly available documents, Morris described how and why sixty per cent of the Palestinians were uprooted and their society destroyed. It was a far more complex picture than many Israelis were prepared to accept. The book features a map that shows three hundred and eighty-nine Arab villages, from upper Galilee to the Negev Desert. Morris revealed that in forty-nine of these villages the indigenous Arabs were expelled by the Haganah and other Jewish military forces; in sixty-two villages, the Arabs fled out of fear, having heard rumors of attacks and even massacres; in six, the villagers left at the instruction of Palestinian local leaders. The refugees, who probably expected to return to their homes in a matter of weeks or months, went to Gaza and the West Bank, and also to surrounding Arab countries—Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, and Syria—where, to this day, they have never been fully absorbed.
http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/b
http://snipurl.com/274fx
And what of the people living in those lands which were annexed?
She still said it would be her policy to kill, by nuclear holocaust, every man, women, child, and dog in Iran if Iran was to use its (hypothetical, imaginary) nuclear weapons against Israel (a foreign nation - not the USA - that is currently the sole nuclear power in the region.
Better to have said that if Israel dared to use its nuclear capabilities in any first-strike against another sovereign nation, that the US would then respond against Israel appropristely. Or better, that Israel would have all US aid cut off until IAEA inspectors were allowed in to verify that Israel had destroyed its nuclear weapons capabilities.
But no, I'm afr4aid Clinton was merely trying to prove she had a larger penis than the Republicans or Iranians. Very dangerous, and it showed she has no business being entrusted with US nuclear launch codes.
Israel almost certainly possesses the capacity to wreck terrible damage on Iran, if the latter were so foolish to use nuclear weapons against it While I sort of agree with you and Clinton on this, the fact that Israel doesn't especially need the American security umbrella makes it something of a non-sequitur.
(But you're making a post about Israel, so it should be entertaining to see what crawls out of the anti-Israel, mildly anti-semetic, woodwork.)
And while not all criticism of Israel is anti-semetic, some portion of it clearly is (see Mearsheimer and Walt).
My problem is it felt like she was fanning the flames of US-Iranian hostility, and then went out of her way to fan the flames of Israeli-Iranian hostility. Whatever happened to "speak softly and carry a big stick?"
Iran knows we have enough nuclear firepower to turn every place they care about into glass craters, and they also know we care enough about Israel to use nukes in such hypothetical circumstances. When it comes to Iran, we don't need any more threats of force, we need discussions of diplomacy, to make it less likely that they would consider nuking anybody. A subtle "we'll make it clear that Iran using, or threatening to use, nuclear weapons, would have dire consequences," would have made the point without staging hypothetical nuclear exchanges with Israel.
One unrelated comment:
(while leaving it unanswered whether or not we'd respond in a nuclear fashion to any non-nuclear attack, letting the history of all the times we haven't yet to speak for itself)
Sure there have been plenty of times when we've been attacked when we haven't responded with nukes. On the other hand, we are the only nation who has responded with nukes against conventional warfare.
Yes, but they were new then, and no one had seen what they could really do, and the whole world, including us, recoiled in horror at what it did. We are not eager to do it again -- except perhaps for people like Cheney.
Our solution lies in figuring out how to keep sociopaths like Cheney from getting any power in the future. We had checks and balances in the past -- it's important to re-convince the American people that we need to get back to having them to keep bad apples out of the barrel. To do that we somehow need to reduce the number of authoritarians in our culture and somehow develop a culture that encourages, rather than discourages, maturity. Any ideas?
"Anyone who wants the job of President, doesn't deserve it." George Washington.
Your defense of her answer to the question, policy-wise, is quite sound, but I think the major problem most critics have with the statement is the fact that a candidate essentially pledged retaliatory genocide in a sensationalist, simplistic, and deliberately threatening manner, and all to get votes. Her choice of words, more than her continuation of our nuclear umbrella policy, was what made this remark alarming and inappropriate.
Right now, most nations in the Middle East (1) barely tolerate Israel because they're either our ostensible allies and we're doing some serious back-room arm-twisting/butt-kissing to keep them from attacking; or (2) just don't see Israel as being worth the time and effort to put together another coalition and attack, and thus gain the ire of the US and EU. Israel announcing that they have nukes would make (1) difficult if not impossible, and make (2) a fond dream as the other nations realized Israel could Reach Out And Nuke Someone(tm). It's in Israel's interest to not make such an announcement. And so the diplomats play the careful game of 'Israel does not have nuclear weapons.'
Actually, thinking about it now, I think another reason that Israel doesn't announce they have nukes is that they have no intermediate-range delivery system. I could be wrong about this, but just as important as a warhead nuke would be a delivery system capable of carrying that nuke to a distant target. (The Davy Crockett system just doesn't have the, y'know, *range* to do it. =) )
I just find it odd that everyone knows but they pretend they don't know.
I think you hit on another reason why Israel doesn't announce it has nukes, though. Israel is an ally of the US, and the US has a pretty (moderately?) stringent 'no proliferation' policy with most of our allies. (Of course, most of the US's allies are nuclear powers anyway.) If they announced they had nukes, the US would be forced to at least publicly deal with that as a proliferation issue which would force a strain on relations, at least in public. Maybe.
At this point I think I'm confused as you are as to why they're continuing the charade. =)
Pressure them to disarm? Yeah, that's going to happen -- never. Yeah, South Africa gave up its nuke after developing one, but the situations aren't entirely parallel. Get them to give up their nuke in exchange for thoroughly verifiable anti-nuclear-weapon agreements with all of Israel's enemies? Yeah, like they'd trust that. Convince Israel that having their own nuke is WHY they're in danger of getting preemptively nuked, one of these days, by Iran or Pakistan? Might work, but do we want to play that card at the risk of having Israel do something truly stupid themselves like nuke Tehran or Karachi preemptively?
It's a bad situation all around.
There are also heavy rumors that the Israelis, in the mid-nineties, bought some really nice diesel subs from the Germans and fitted a Popeye cruise missle system inside (it's a American crusie missle minus all the fancy electronics- which, for nukes, you don't really need).
So, yeah, if Isreal really really wanted to... bad things....
Here's the Global Security.org link:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/w
(see comment listed below)